I am supportive of belt checker. I am not a fan of the IBJJF and think we need an alternative, which could be this, but the way it's naturally developing leads me to question if it's going to be the alternative we need.
The IBJJF has integrity at the expense of being exclusionary. If you don't train with one of their recognised (fee paying) black belts, then you don't get to be an IBJJF black belt. However if someone has an IBJJF black belt ID card, I am certain they're a 'legit' black belt.
I have not put much effort into getting verified, which has led to only 2 people I know, and have rolled with, verifying me. The rest are people who are literally verifying me on the back of photos. Verifying me, but also recommending I upload more photos? My dudes, anyone can put on a gi and a belt and take a photo.
My point is; I like the idea, but if it's going to be a big circle jerk of verifying people you've never rolled with to get more points, then that will impact how people view a 'bjj belt checker' black belt.
I agree with your point and I hope it is moving towards that. Once the thing got going I have almost stopped giving out votes for people I haven't properly interacted with. Some still do that though.
I have verified many on the "back of photos" or through other trusted members verification as well. After reading so many posts about members disapproval of these types of verifications it has me thinking of withdrawing a bunch of votes. It is true someone can take photos with a gi on and a belt etc at a seminar or whatever. I know my instructor won't take photos like that anymore for this very reason. I check social media and even do web searches, check their academy web pages looking for a chink in the armor. I've even messaged a few black belts on facebook messenger that I do not know that were listed as coaches to get verification too. I thought that was the whole point of this site. You see a profile, you do some research and you vote on whether you believe they are legitimate in their claim or not. If you know them or can easily find out if they are legit than even better. If it were only based on people who know the practitioner directly the majority of people on here, legit people, would not be verified at all or at least it would take a very long time. Of course everyone can do what they like but perhaps when receiving a vote from an unknown person that is willing to vote for their profile, they should politely message them and ask them to rescind their vote for the sake of their personal view of how this site should work. This way they can keep their integrity intact. :-)
Just my 2 cents for what it's worth.
"I've even messaged a few black belts on facebook messenger that I do not know that were listed as coaches to get verification too. I thought that was the whole point of this site. You see a profile, you do some research and you vote on whether you believe they are legitimate in their claim or not. If you know them or can easily find out if they are legit than even better. If it were only based on people who know the practitioner directly the majority of people on here, legit people, would not be verified at all or at least it would take a very long time. "
Agreed, this is how it's supposed to work. If it were only friends, people coming in with no connections to verified people on the platform would be impossible to get verified.
Also. you are putting your name + face there on your verification (and a link to your profile), so that should make voters to do at least some research before publicly vouching for a person even here.
"Agreed, this is how it's supposed to work. If it were only friends, people coming in with no connections to verified people on the platform would be impossible to get verified. Also. you are putting your name + face there on your verification (and a link to your profile), so that should make voters to do at least some research before publicly vouching for a person even here."
Also, after 25 years in this art I hope I can still smell a fraud a mile away even on a virtual scope.
I agree with all the good thoughts and views here. I think we should also remember that no vote is final. If anyone gets exposed as a fraud, having cheated with photos or whatever, the community can instantly withdraw and/or downvote. The verification is always “live” so to say, which is a strength of the system that we haven’t seen/needed in action yet.
It’ll literally only take one forum post or downvote of a fraudulently verified profile to bring it down.
"I agree with all the good thoughts and views here. I think we should also remember that no vote is final. If anyone gets exposed as a fraud, having cheated with photos or whatever, the community can instantly withdraw and/or downvote. The verification is always “live” so to say, which is a strength of the system that we haven’t seen/needed in action yet. It’ll literally only take one forum post or downvote of a fraudulently verified profile to bring it down."
Another thing to consider is also that fake belts are probably incredibly rare. So it makes a lot of sense that almost everyone gets verified. In the few cases where there is doubt about someone not following the general guidelines for promotions, the system points it out really quickly. But it will never be a huge thing with lots of disputes profiles and drama; those people will simply not sign up here, I predict.
So we can consider the community verification process, more than anything, as a mechanism to ensure that we build a user base of well documented and well filled out profiles, which should not be underestimated. Belt verification is not really an issue in the real world (although IBJJF has made a good business out of making people think it is). The true challenge is to build a social media platform that’s not full of half full, lazy, unreliable profiles. And that’s exactly what we’re on our way to succeed in doing with this community verification filter :)
"Another thing to consider is also that fake belts are probably incredibly rare. So it makes a lot of sense that almost everyone gets verified. In the few cases where there is doubt about someone not following the general guidelines for promotions, the system points it out really quickly. But it will never be a huge thing with lots of disputes profiles and drama; those people will simply not sign up here, I predict. So we can consider the community verification process, more than anything, as a mechanism to ensure that we build a user base of well documented and well filled out profiles, which should not be underestimated. Belt verification is not really an issue in the real world (although IBJJF has made a good business out of making people think it is). The true challenge is to build a social media platform that’s not full of half full, lazy, unreliable profiles. And that’s exactly what we’re on our way to succeed in doing with this community verification filter :)"
If this was a Facebook post I would put the thumbs up but it's not so I have to make a post here about.
Great to see so many responses here, clearly lots of engaged people who want to see belt checker do well.
As I don't want to be the reddit complainer guy, I have an idea of how to 'improve' the system. I'm not saying it's a good idea, or remotely demanding it to be implemented, just offering an idea:
On the verification modal, add checkbox with 3 options: 1) I've trained with them, 2) People I've trained with have trained with them, 3) I have not met them.
I would personally not allow the verification to be added if they click the 3rd option (maybe with the exception of a black belt?). And maybe half the verification points for option 2.
Just an idea, would like to hear what people think of that. Of course the danger is that if you join with only 1 or 2 friends on here, you'll really struggle to get verified, and might lose interest, which would in turn slow down the momentum of belt checker. It's a trade off between growth & legitimacy that I guess Christian needs to figure out.
Hmmm and my offer to implement that feature got cut off from ☝️. In any case Christian, if it's open source, or you want to add me to the repo, I would be happy to implement that feature.
"I am supportive of belt checker. I am not a fan of the IBJJF and think we need an alternative, which could be this, but the way it's naturally developing leads me to question if it's going to be the alternative we need. The IBJJF has integrity at the expense of being exclusionary. If you don't train with one of their recognised (fee paying) black belts, then you don't get to be an IBJJF black belt. However if someone has an IBJJF black belt ID card, I am certain they're a 'legit' black belt. I have not put much effort into getting verified, which has led to only 2 people I know, and have rolled with, verifying me. The rest are people who are literally verifying me on the back of photos. Verifying me, but also recommending I upload more photos? My dudes, anyone can put on a gi and a belt and take a photo. My point is; I like the idea, but if it's going to be a big circle jerk of verifying people you've never rolled with to get more points, then that will impact how people view a 'bjj belt checker' black belt."
i am gonna tell you now there are people who have a ibjjf approved blackbelt who suck who have horrible technical knowledge.
it is a nice idealistic thought but reality is often disappointing...
sure the majority is legit, but it is in no way a 100% proof.
and its the same here. just this here doesnt cost money, unless you get the bjj id card which is still quite cheap
and you can quickly get disputed here while once approved by ibjjf paying your membership you can basically do whatever the fuck you want you stay legit...
while its easier to try to fake here it also gets exposed easier over time, in ibjjf its harder to find a way to fake but believe me there still are ways and once you found one you cant be stopped unlike here....
"On the verification modal, add checkbox with 3 options: 1) I've trained with them, 2) People I've trained with have trained with them, 3) I have not met them."
I had this in mind when I designed the system, but it just raises more questions, like if you trained with someone, are you still in a position to verify their belt rank? What if they put on a purple belt but, are really just blue belt but did pretty well in those 4 minutes you rolled? I think that just leads to even more uncertainties, so I ultimately decided to let the community organically figure out what would be the criteria for verification.
...WHICH also very well can change over time. We saw in the beginning that people held their cards close and only verified people they knew well. Then there sprung a culture of helping the site grow, so verification through a trustworthy looking profile of a stranger became a thing. Maybe now when we have a larger user base, this will again come to a hault and people will go back to only verifying friends and training partners. Who knows; regardless it's interesting to follow. And at the end of the day, whatever the average of the community as a whole decides is "verification", that will be actual verification. Because the rules, regulations and culture of BJJ is just that; an average of what everyone agrees is correct behavior.
"I had this in mind when I designed the system, but it just raises more questions, like if you trained with someone, are you still in a position to verify their belt rank? What if they put on a purple belt but, are really just blue belt but did pretty well in those 4 minutes you rolled? I think that just leads to even more uncertainties, so I ultimately decided to let the community organically figure out what would be the criteria for verification. ...WHICH also very well can change over time. We saw in the beginning that people held their cards close and only verified people they knew well. Then there sprung a culture of helping the site grow, so verification through a trustworthy looking profile of a stranger became a thing. Maybe now when we have a larger user base, this will again come to a hault and people will go back to only verifying friends and training partners. Who knows; regardless it's interesting to follow. And at the end of the day, whatever the average of the community as a whole decides is 'verification', that will be actual verification. Because the rules, regulations and culture of BJJ is just that; an average of what everyone agrees is correct behavior. Let's see, I'm excited :D"
So there is a little bit of a Catch 22 with this. I come from a small school with few students who compete. It might be very difficult to get verified. I hope to compete this fall in an IBJJ Competition and was wondering how I was going to get verified. I am going to the BJJ Globetrotter Arizona Camp next month and figured I would make connections there. However a number of people who I do not know and have never rolled with votes for my profile and verified it? It renders the verification meaningless! Personally I am only going to vote for people I know or rolled with if not against. I feel that should be the policy’. Exceptions can always be made as needed but I feel no one should “verify” anyone they don’t have personal knowledge of!
"So there is a little bit of a Catch 22 with this. I come from a small school with few students who compete. It might be very difficult to get verified. I hope to compete this fall in an IBJJ Competition and was wondering how I was going to get verified. I am going to the BJJ Globetrotter Arizona Camp next month and figured I would make connections there. However a number of people who I do not know and have never rolled with votes for my profile and verified it? It renders the verification meaningless! Personally I am only going to vote for people I know or rolled with if not against. I feel that should be the policy’. Exceptions can always be made as needed but I feel no one should “verify” anyone they don’t have personal knowledge of!"
In keeping with your assessment and out of respect for your feelings on the matter I have withdrawn my vote from your profile which was based on my familiarity with Mica (we are teammates) and knowledge of your academies affiliation with him. (former affiliation?)
If anyone else would like me to withdraw my vote from their profile, do not hesitate to message me I will be more than happy to oblige.
Now this is getting more interesting.
Somewhat like Tatu, I have done a fair bit of verifying folks I don't personally know, but only when their profiles looked plausible and I could confirm (with google and facebook and youtube) that their profile was consistent with what else I could find, in the spirit of growing the community for earnest-looking folks who didn't have a lot of first-degree contacts in the system. To Christian's point, I also feel confident that if this site reaches critical mass (we are still quite a long way from that in my region), any frauds which I naively verify will be immediately down-voted by the real members of the legitimate academies and coaches they are claiming affiliation with. As it's turning out, the mere level of detail required to verify identity and complete a profile, and the fact that everyone else in here is legit, has filtered out any poseurs. Think about it, if you wanted to pretend you were a navy SEAL, you probably wouldn't do it at the mess hall at NAB Coronado. So even if 'verified' means nothing other than, 'passed the the belt-checker community smell test'...well, that appears to be pretty good. Has there even been a single case yet of a completed profile which has turned out to be fraudulent?
Christian maybe you can add a "vote rejected" from user button for those who wish to receive votes only from people they know.
Also perhaps a stat on this topic added to the stats page. Should be very interesting to see.
"Has there even been a single case yet of a completed profile which has turned out to be fraudulent?"
So far yes, a single case (1) of a completed profile whose rank has been disputed by the community for other reasons than incomplete promotion history. Kudos to the person in question for not deactivating his profile, and it has spawned interesting discussion on the forums.
"In keeping with your assessment and out of respect for your feelings on the matter I have withdrawn my vote from your profile which was based on my familiarity with Mica (we are teammates) and knowledge of your academies affiliation with him. (former affiliation?) If anyone else would like me to withdraw my vote from their profile, do not hesitate to message me I will be more than happy to oblige. Now this is getting more interesting."
Here is another take on voting requirements :) We also can imagine that different standards and cultures of verification can evolve in different areas of the world. Interesting!
"Has there even been a single case yet of a completed profile which has turned out to be fraudulent?"
Apart from the one Tatu is mentioning, there has been maybe 2-4 profiles I’ve seen that has tried to become verified with some MMA grappling belt certificates or similar. They quickly got disputed and even more quickly removed their profiles. So in that sense, the system works perfectly :)
"Here is another take on voting requirements :) We also can imagine that different standards and cultures of verification can evolve in different areas of the world. Interesting!"
This kinda made sense as Mr. Saks & the profiles he disputed are all from South Africa, where they have a small community (his words), so probably all black belts there are familiar with the people who have promoting credentials... Thus he is asking for more information if he doesn't know these practitioners or isn't familiar with their gym.
I like that there is a system for disputing belt rank. Lineage however is a tricky topic and can quickly become embroiled in the ugly politics of some schools.
My worry at first was doxxing, like downvoted into Oblivion for the lulz. Fortunately, I came to my senses and was like well, it's their name their putting out there to vote em down.. and if a lot of people downvoted there's gotta be a reason.
I feel it's the same with verification itself. Your putting your name out there when you vote. If it turns out you were wrong, which can easily get found out, it's your name. You can potentially lose legitimacy of you vote for someone that turns out to be faking.
At first I posted my diploma and IBJJF and SJJIF membership cards and I think that helps get verified faster but some people seemed more interested in my belt history so I edited that and had to get reverified ..
Most higher belts can spot a fraud a mile away,, Lets face it a diploma from a recognized instructor and an extensive competition record is a no brainer we are still a pretty small sport and compared to the hoops the IBBJF makes people jump through this is easy
I don't know no folks I renewed my IBJJF Card and I also ordered my Beltchecker Card. I got the IBJJF one in the mail first. I guess what I'm saying is Christian needs to step up his post office game. Lol
