Gym owners allow violent people and criminals (domestic abuse/bar brawls/drug dealers etc) to train/teach at the gym. (This one you probably wouldn't notice to begin with of course, but if you learn of such going on, leave that gym asap.)
I would have to agree with Coachpotato (love the name by the way lol).
If I may add one more to that list.
Poor sanitation habits. Not cleaning the mats often and properly leads to worse issues for those training on the mats. Bacteria and infections will happen.
Students aren't "allowed' to cross train or train at other gyms. They never have open mats either.
Everyone has the same style of jiu jitsu which magically happens to be the same as what the coach uses in competition. Ever seen an entire club of x-guard players? (I have)
Students learn to a ruleset and ignore fundamental good principles of grappling. Advanced belts that don't know how to hide their heel because they just assume they'll never compete with heel hooks. Purple belts who don't know how to knee bar.
They refuse to grapple under different rulesets.
Their students perform so badly at competition that they start holding their own tournaments and not allowing 'outsiders'.
"Instructor doesn't check in on/follow up with students when injuries happen, doesn't show concern or stop rolling nearby when another student gets injured."
I've actually heard someone say you can't get better at Jiu-Jitsu unless you've broken your leg.
"Might be a few repeats in here but just going down my mental list of what I've seen: * Instructor is cagey about mentioning/has no documentation of who promoted them/lineage. (Implies bad blood/politics/hiding something) * Poor online presence: Outdated website with no prices anywhere, no real attempts to maintain a social media presence or little social media interaction with other gyms and students. * MULTIPLE 'former business partners.' * Not enforcing hygiene among students/Not sending dirty students home, ringworm keeps showing up despite your own personal good hygiene (insufficient cleaning, dirty mats) * Anything beyond mat fees that seem pressured or especially onerous (mandatory uniforms, high pressure sales tactics used on visitors) * Instructor has no history of competing, ever. (I might be able to think of exceptions, but those would be rare.) * Spite promotions/demotions. Instructor stripes or promotes less experienced members above others to generate animosity; demotes people coming from a different gym and making them start over or silently resets them without letting them know that they're being reevaluated. * Subnote from above: Seems like this should be no big deal, but I think it can be an indication of more serious issues: Instructor doesn't apply stripe promotions themselves. Eg, they hand you a piece of tape and make you put it on yourself instead. They should care that they get to promote you. * Judgmental remarks about one on one classes with another instructor at the same gym, dropping in elsewhere, instructionals, cross training, camps... implying the instructor should be the only thing you learn from... other students get very quiet if you ask where they learned something from or where else they've trained. * Hell, judgmental remarks in general. * Toxic behavior like 'making an example of' someone else, purposely ignoring a specific student when asking for questions, generally having double standards that involves multiple students * High gym turnover/Too many white belts; No/few longstanding students visiting while in town * Instructor doesn't check in on/follow up with students when injuries happen, doesn't show concern or stop rolling nearby when another student gets injured. * No concern showed towards students who may have different needs in communication, hydration, medial issues, etc... * Upper belts (including instructor) unable (or unwilling) to dial down intensity to meet the level of one who isn't as strong/experienced. * Overly serious environment, absolutely no talking during drills even when it would help training partners to understand the move, etc... * No sense of community or social connection, no enthusiasm about visitors during open mats, often nobody from outside the gym at open mats, discouraging others from open mats (eg, 'Why would you go there?'), no presence at or participation during community open mat fundraisers/events. * Despite being around for a sufficient amount of time (5+ years, perhaps), gym is 'invisible'... Rarely mentioned by others elsewhere. People ask 'who?' when you mention the gym. The BJJ community everywhere is small. There is no BJJ scene in any city that is too big that someone who became a black belt within a town or city would be so unknown after opening up their own gym. It's hard to not be one or two steps away from anyone else. Often in this case, people aren't unaware: They're intentionally black holing the gym likely due to bad experiences and/or reputation. Hard to believe I put up with it for so long, but I managed to hit every single one of these points at one single gym. Glad I got out when I did: I would have quit the day (if I ever were to be/got) promoted to Blue had I stayed at that gym. And that was probably the former instructor's intention. I felt so gaslit that I could not trust that things would have been better anywhere else when I was exploring options. Sunk cost fallacy hit me hard in this case and I stayed far longer than I should have. I just leave this for anyone who runs across it: If you have to ask (yourself or anyone else) if you should train somewhere else: You already know the answer. Just leave. Don't wait for the 'right time.' Don't stick around thinking things will get better if you try hard enough and earn that promotion and get into your instructor's good graces: You won't, especially if you're still feeling unwelcome after a considerable amount of time. You are paying for a service. You're allowed to fire an instructor who isn't giving you what you need."
"I've actually heard someone say you can't get better at Jiu-Jitsu unless you've broken your leg."
People say they are quitting because of an injury. Who do they think trained for 10+ years to get a black belt and didn't have an injury along the way.
"I've actually heard someone say you can't get better at Jiu-Jitsu unless you've broken your leg."
I have had to learn wrestling several times.
Learn Judo several times.
And Jiu-Jitsu many times.
I have had several bodies.
But, that was and remains the fun part.
Being a white belt,
And getting to learn all over again.
The Mind goes last.
And it goes as well.
That too, is another adventure.
And then we die.
"People say they are quitting because of an injury. Who do they think trained for 10+ years to get a black belt and didn't have an injury along the way."
I've been training for about 10 years now, compete regularly at both a fairly high level and general do well, and also train every day. Haven't ever broken my leg. In fact, I've been able to avoid major injury in general.. Yeah, it's a contact sport and injuries are going to happen, but there's a huge difference between accepting that injuries are a part of the home and having some kind of injury fetish and thinking they are mandatory for your progression.
Honestly, the whole idea is a bit silly really. Taking 3 to 5 months off training because of a broken leg is going to make your Jiu-Jitsu worse, not better.
"I've been training for about 10 years now, compete regularly at both a fairly high level and general do well, and also train every day. Haven't ever broken my leg. In fact, I've been able to avoid major injury in general.. Yeah, it's a contact sport and injuries are going to happen, but there's a huge difference between accepting that injuries are a part of the home and having some kind of injury fetish and thinking they are mandatory for your progression. Honestly, the whole idea is a bit silly really. Taking 3 to 5 months off training because of a broken leg is going to make your Jiu-Jitsu worse, not better."
While the injury itself doesn't make you better...
Being forced to work on other stuff or work around your injuries does make you better.
At least 5 times I have gotten better during injuries because I didn't stop training, and it forced me to work around the injury I had doing something different than what I wanted to do or normally would do.
A bjj academy should be your home from home. You should meet people that you like to share your time with, who enrich your day, who challenge you in a positive way. The environment should be welcoming, clean (hygiene, language, everything) and everbody should (by isntinct) treat it like their owm homes, taking care of it. The tone for this is set by the people running the academy, your professors/coaches. It is like parents, if you live by your values on a daily basis, you will never have to force it based on your position/hirarchy. To me, it should be like a familiy, having mutual respect and trust in each other, the urge to help each other to grow but still have the little competition going, like siblings, but without escalating into something that could hurt or injure.
To me, everything falls into place, if you are within such an evironment. It is about seeing what unites rather than what might not.
So to me red flags would be everything not matching the above.
Edit: Sorry this is so long
It's ironic that I found this today. I just left a very toxic gym (today) and I wasn't fully aware of it. I'll explain:
The gym I just left (Aztlan Combat Sports) opened its doors officially in April this year. We had had a shift in ownership a few months prior which led to the name change and new location. Shortly after we opened our doors, we had a slew of people leave (coaches and students). It was an uncertain time and the drama made everyone nervous. Ultimately I stayed a long with most of the staff.
The new owner from the get go was very "my way or the highway" as well as money hungry. An initial price hike with a larger facility and new amenities didn't bother anyone too much. But that was only the start. Immediate merchandising, attempts to setup camps, a private lesson structure to share profits between the selected instructor and gym, to name a few. A new belt test for blue was introduced, and boy was it a doozy: it was poorly designed and students have limited access to required information (mostly through paywalls such as private lessons).
Well, I went a long with the owner and gave feedback, much of which was ignored. I was teaching five classes a week unpaid and fine with it. He had a specific curriculum he wanted us teaching down to the letter. When we not teaching it exactly, or if the students did not appear to understand it quick enough, we were berated. This came to a head recently.
It's setup on a 12 week cycle, new position each week, rinse and repeat. Last week during my class he walks in off the street, walks up to my students and asks each one in turn to "show me an ashi garami". These students have only seen it once for certain, and twice if they've been to every class, on the system (in our third time through the cycle), as they have all been training less than a year. After each one was unable to demonstrate anything resembling and ashi, he would say incorrect and move on to the next, till all and tried, failed and he walked off without a word. One lady in my class, who I have strong assumptions was an abuse victim began crying and apologized to me because she felt she let me down. Our owner later confirmed that this was a statement to me that I was teaching his curriculum the way it should be taught. Despite my efforts to teach in detail his system, and despite my request for some latitude in what is taught, it still wasn't good enough. I spoke with him and he made his point known and I was willing to look past it.
Until another white belt friend of mine had an incident earlier this week with the owner. When doing a Q&A during class, my friend asked if he could show a particular move on the blue belt test (he has been studying for months and the owner have been badgering him to test). The owner then asked him why he was asking about that part of the curriculum and stated emphatically that he will need to either come to each of the 32 weeks of advanced class to learn that specific move, or take a private lesson. Out of reluctance he showed the move and answered the question.
Upon hearing this story, I had enough. Recognizing all the abuse I've gone through (I've only scratched the surface) this year, and now discovering that students are just money bags and not seen as people, I was furious. (It is ironic that this very same owner had just told me last week that he's concerned not enough people are testing for blue).
Well, I turned in my key and called them to speak my peace. The owner was clearly trying to manipulate me into staying. I heard his take on it and that did not sway my opinion. Leading up to and during this conversation I was extremely anxious and even for some time after. He of course was irate that I would not be swayed and even mentioned that they had spent $100 on a black belt they meant to promote me with next month. I will add, I've only been training here for the 8 months we've been open plus a 1 1/2 year at the old place. I spent almost my entire time training across the country training with a different team prior to my move.
It took me after my phone call to realize, the owner never once apologized for any mistakes (he was always justified and defended his position), demeaned the opposing party that wasn't there to defend themselves (when discussing drama), constantly belittled me with minor comments, always felt I was under scrutiny, and weaponized the belt system (I knew if I did get promoted he'd see leaving as the biggest stab in the back). To cap it off, he was furious when I told him that in no uncertain terms was I staying. As an unpaid volunteer who's helping to keep this place afloat, in loyalty to its members, I am the bad guy for leaving.
It feels like an abusive relationship. I have no I'll will towards him (in fact I'm nervous he may break into my house), and I feel awful, like I let everyone down.
"Edit: Sorry this is so long It's ironic that I found this today. I just left a very toxic gym (today) and I wasn't fully aware of it. I'll explain: The gym I just left (Aztlan Combat Sports) opened its doors officially in April this year. We had had a shift in ownership a few months prior which led to the name change and new location. Shortly after we opened our doors, we had a slew of people leave (coaches and students). It was an uncertain time and the drama made everyone nervous. Ultimately I stayed a long with most of the staff. The new owner from the get go was very 'my way or the highway' as well as money hungry. An initial price hike with a larger facility and new amenities didn't bother anyone too much. But that was only the start. Immediate merchandising, attempts to setup camps, a private lesson structure to share profits between the selected instructor and gym, to name a few. A new belt test for blue was introduced, and boy was it a doozy: it was poorly designed and students have limited access to required information (mostly through paywalls such as private lessons). Well, I went a long with the owner and gave feedback, much of which was ignored. I was teaching five classes a week unpaid and fine with it. He had a specific curriculum he wanted us teaching down to the letter. When we not teaching it exactly, or if the students did not appear to understand it quick enough, we were berated. This came to a head recently. It's setup on a 12 week cycle, new position each week, rinse and repeat. Last week during my class he walks in off the street, walks up to my students and asks each one in turn to 'show me an ashi garami'. These students have only seen it once for certain, and twice if they've been to every class, on the system (in our third time through the cycle), as they have all been training less than a year. After each one was unable to demonstrate anything resembling and ashi, he would say incorrect and move on to the next, till all and tried, failed and he walked off without a word. One lady in my class, who I have strong assumptions was an abuse victim began crying and apologized to me because she felt she let me down. Our owner later confirmed that this was a statement to me that I was teaching his curriculum the way it should be taught. Despite my efforts to teach in detail his system, and despite my request for some latitude in what is taught, it still wasn't good enough. I spoke with him and he made his point known and I was willing to look past it. Until another white belt friend of mine had an incident earlier this week with the owner. When doing a Q&A during class, my friend asked if he could show a particular move on the blue belt test (he has been studying for months and the owner have been badgering him to test). The owner then asked him why he was asking about that part of the curriculum and stated emphatically that he will need to either come to each of the 32 weeks of advanced class to learn that specific move, or take a private lesson. Out of reluctance he showed the move and answered the question. Upon hearing this story, I had enough. Recognizing all the abuse I've gone through (I've only scratched the surface) this year, and now discovering that students are just money bags and not seen as people, I was furious. (It is ironic that this very same owner had just told me last week that he's concerned not enough people are testing for blue). Well, I turned in my key and called them to speak my peace. The owner was clearly trying to manipulate me into staying. I heard his take on it and that did not sway my opinion. Leading up to and during this conversation I was extremely anxious and even for some time after. He of course was irate that I would not be swayed and even mentioned that they had spent $100 on a black belt they meant to promote me with next month. I will add, I've only been training here for the 8 months we've been open plus a 1 1/2 year at the old place. I spent almost my entire time training across the country training with a different team prior to my move. It took me after my phone call to realize, the owner never once apologized for any mistakes (he was always justified and defended his position), demeaned the opposing party that wasn't there to defend themselves (when discussing drama), constantly belittled me with minor comments, always felt I was under scrutiny, and weaponized the belt system (I knew if I did get promoted he'd see leaving as the biggest stab in the back). To cap it off, he was furious when I told him that in no uncertain terms was I staying. As an unpaid volunteer who's helping to keep this place afloat, in loyalty to its members, I am the bad guy for leaving. It feels like an abusive relationship. I have no I'll will towards him (in fact I'm nervous he may break into my house), and I feel awful, like I let everyone down."
Fuck money hungry scumbags.
If what you say is true, find somewhere else to train or teach.
"The owner then asked him why he was asking about that part of the curriculum and stated emphatically that he will need to either come to each of the 32 weeks of advanced class to learn that specific move, or take a private lesson."
Withholding techniques to get people to pay for privates is absurd enough, basing your class structure in a way to try and force people to pay for privates just so they know what is needed to get a belt is an entire other level of assholery.
Also only training on a curriculum and never taking the time to focus on specific training will keep you a beginner forever. Doing something only once or twice a year is not going to give you enough time to get good at anything. If you were to do a forced curriculum it would be way better to stay on similar topics for multiple weeks at a time while also doing some position sparring working on the same topics.
"If what you say is true, find somewhere else to train or teach."
100% true. Tomorrow I start up at a new place. I'm already friends with my new coach, and he's never been anything but nice, patient and understanding. Complete opposite. Just concerned about the students I'm leaving behind.
"Edit: Sorry this is so long It's ironic that I found this today. I just left a very toxic gym (today) and I wasn't fully aware of it."
Man I'm so happy that you left that place. It sounds horrible. I hope you can recover well and quickly from this experience. (From experience I know that this can still take a while till it's really digested, but your new place should help if you found something good <3)
(To me it was quite helpful to talk with other people, who left, about the absurdities. Maybe also try that occasionally. <3)
You mentioned that you feel like it having been a toxic relationship and I'm really convinced that those social dynamics were making it toxic as fuck.
Since I know that one can be quite... 'unreasonable', about norms after leaving such places. Here is a bit of the situation in our gym so you can see how weird you have been treated:
- purple belt from our gym who gave the beginner classes got heavy around her belly area (I think her boyfriend was involved in this)
So we had to get new teachers for the beginner classes.
- 4 other blue belt and me (also a blue belt at that time), were asked if we wanna teach it
- the trainers gave us their curriculum and told us what's the goal of the course
- the first run we didn't change anything but were given green light on doing so
- second round in the curriculum we changed some things or went a bit of topic if it matched the group
- right from the start we were free to organize the schedule ourselves (which class is given by whom) (the lesson followed a smart train of thought so there was nothing to change about that)
If our main coaches thought we might go too far from the set goal of the class they kindly talked with us about their concerns but not a single time came one of our coaches to us and told us we're going the job wrong. Or treated the students like this, or interrogated them (not even talking about the lack of respect that owner showed)
They'd ask us if we struggle with something or if the students do so and gave us some advices on it.
They also joined the beginner classes as a student if they couldn't make it to the regular ones or when they knew one of us is showing something unorthodox and they wanted to see it / practice it for themselves.
They also gave us a little box of presents as thank you at our Christmas party.
We were 5 stupid ass blue belts.
You're a brown belt with over a decade of experience.
Your story is crazy as fuck.
"Membership contracts. Anything that requires you to make a longterm financial commitment is suspect."
To me this one is always a bit confusing... Maybe it's a culture thing but in Germany 1 year contracts are the norm for all sort of things...
In a lot of places* you can choose a shorter timeframe but doing so makes you pay way more per month. Usually in a way that you paid the 1 year price tag in under a year (be it 6 months, 9 months or in some places even 3 months)
*It's not only martial arts gyms but also regular sport gyms, all sort of clubs, music schools etc.
Mostly relevant to females for my own experience: Cattiness, body shaming, bullying - and if the bullying isn’t addressed the first time around by your coach (downplayed, ignored, no discipline to the guilty parties) - LEAVE.
I literally was told at a gym that my fun bags were too big and I needed to do something about them. At first I thought it was just interpersonal BS and I was still learning anyway, but many areas of my growth in BJJ were neglected because a brown belt female was jealous of my looks - yes, it was THAT stupid and junior high level.
I still laugh about that comment. Too big. Oh sorry lemme just let the air out of them like tires…
"To me this one is always a bit confusing... Maybe it's a culture thing but in Germany 1 year contracts are the norm for all sort of things... In a lot of places* you can choose a shorter timeframe but doing so makes you pay way more per month. Usually in a way that you paid the 1 year price tag in under a year (be it 6 months, 9 months or in some places even 3 months) *It's not only martial arts gyms but also regular sport gyms, all sort of clubs, music schools etc."
I can respect that. In the states yr long contracts are seen as anti-consumer. It benefits the business and locks people in. The bigger problem is often the owners themselves. Why are they locking you in? Most do it as a way to secure a revenue stream in an unstable field of work. I've known multiple owners who have a great gym and have a plethora of clientele without any contracts. It's a red flag because you need to further investigate the character of the ownership and their reasoning behind why they feel it is necessary.
"To me this one is always a bit confusing... Maybe it's a culture thing but in Germany 1 year contracts are the norm for all sort of things... In a lot of places* you can choose a shorter timeframe but doing so makes you pay way more per month. Usually in a way that you paid the 1 year price tag in under a year (be it 6 months, 9 months or in some places even 3 months) *It's not only martial arts gyms but also regular sport gyms, all sort of clubs, music schools etc."
It isn't abnormal in the U.S. for there to be contracts for things like internet, cable, cell phones, or about any other service. No real problem there because there is usually some overhead associated with equipment that needs to be covered and a contract is a good way to ensure that the company doesn't lose money on the deal. These are also things people "need" in their every day lives. For gyms it's a different story because their services are not a necessity and most people will not stick with it past a month or two. In addition to what John said, once a gym has a guarantee of revenue for the duration of the contract, what is their motivation to provide a good service? There is nothing.
